Time Bomb:Defying All Logic- An Argument with Fundamentalists

All names have been changed.

The following discussion took place on Sunday, May 28 1994 after Michael Rollins sent the quintessential 'coming out' letter to his parents on Tuesday of the previous week. They drove straight from Florida to save Michael from himself and his lover, John. After grilling Michael the night before at their motel room, his parents agreed to meet John at brunch the next morning. They finished brunch and drove to a local park to talk, where John had his cassette recorder ready. This dialogue is transcribed verbatim from tape.

Mother: We are not against you...

Michael: I know, the last thing I want you to do is be against me

Mother: We're not at all against you.

Father: We're here for you.

Michael: I know that, you wouldn't have come here to see me...

Mother: You know that we love you unconditionally, or we wouldn't come up here.

Michael: I know.

Father: You both know in your hearts and minds that it's not right. If you can't go...the only thing you have to judge it by is the Bible, if you can't accept the Bible...

Michael: But there's not even enough in there to say...

Father: YES THERE IS!

Michael: But what you read me last night, Dad, didn't mean very much.

Father: What do you mean it didn't mean very much.

John: It's all ambiguous.

Mother: Because it was talking about...

Father: Define ambiguous.

John: It's vague enough to be all-inclusive no matter what kind of interpretation you make.

Father: No, it's not vague, it's literal.

Michael: I don't exactly remember what it was.

John: So, the Bible occurred word for word?

Father: Yeah.

Michael: It's been changed, though, through years of inter...

Father: No.

Michael: It has though.

Father: It says the same basic thing.

Michael: You don't know that!

John: How do you know?

Mother: Do you know what y'all are doing, y'all are sitting there...to even have the gall to sit there...and question whether god's word is true or not.

John: If you don't question you don't learn.

Mother: This is the problem right here.

Father: Yeah, but its all against what christ said...

Mother: You're questioning god's word - why am I not questioning god's word?

Michael: Because you're too afraid to.

Both: AFRAID TO?

Mother: Excuse me? I'm afraid to?

John: Well, we're afraid of hell.

Mother: Well what do you have to be afraid of if you truly believe in god's word?

John: Yeah, but if you don't - the fear is instilled in children.

Mother: No, sir!

John: The fear is instilled that they will go to hell!

Mother: You know why I accepted jesus christ? Cause I saw how much he loved me. What they portray in the pictures and stuff, that's not even pictures - you couldn't even recognize him as a man - blood was pouring off of - he wasn't even recognizable - I didn't never go, Huh! I'm afraid of judgment stuff, hey listen, I was raised in a church all my life, and you know what I thought, I thought I was just too good. I just thought I'm a good christian, and then the more I heard god's word - not a man's word - just reading god's word and just by reading it and letting it speak to my heart and opening my mind to say, hey, let's take a look at this - I opened it up and started reading it - god's words said that his word is like a two edged sword that pierces the soul where nobody else can hear you - he spoke to me and he let me know, I died on the cross for you. This is what it is all about, for all have sinned - ALL have sinned...

John: (laughs)

Mother: All have sinned and come short of the glory of christ - there is no righteous, no not one - jesus said I am the way the truth and the life.

John: So even as you commit sins as long as you've accepted christ into your heart he'll forgive you.

Mother: You don't take advantage of grace.

Father: He'll forgive you, John.

Mother: You don't go Hey, I'm a christian now, I can go out and party.

(They begin talking all at once, can make out 'Hollywood christianity' and 'that's not how I want to be')

Mother: If you're his child, if you've stepped out of line, he says, "stepping out of line, better not do that again." Then that's when the parents have to take control and show the child, hey, you're going to get in trouble for this.

John: But, he's no longer a child.

Mother: He's still my child.

John: He's not a child.

Mother: He will always be my child.

Father: You know it.

John: But that was an idea you had of him back them.

Mother: No!

John: You haven't known him for four years.

Mother: Listen here, you're being real hateful in saying those things, OK? Don't sit there and say that to me, all right, just respect that of me as a person and a mother. I appreciate that

Father: We served christ cause we, cause I was a dope smokin dopehead.

Mother: We weren't always good christians...

Michael: I know that

Father: (sarcastically) Reefer's a natural herb that grows in the field, what's wrong with smokin reefer?

Mother: But what we want Matt to do is just be considerate of us as parents, OK, now, he says that he's a homosexual. he says it started when he was young.

Michael: No, I already knew all that, I've had plenty of time to think it over.

Mother: Yes, you've had plenty of time to think it over...

Michael: Yeah, I have.

Mother: But you never came to us, you never gave us chance, ever.

John: He was afraid of you.

Mother: Yes, I'm sorry but he never gave me a chance. He never gave me a chance.

Michael: It wasn't that I was afraid of you, I was afraid of what I was already told that would have, or what I would be told, I already knew.

Father: See, yall haven't come to the realization of satan and god, Michael.

Mother: Until you truly believe god's word, to truly put your faith in that.

Father: That's where you have to see the line.

Mother: That's it, there's gods plan, man can take it he can wreck it he can do his own thing you can do as long as you want to live your own lifestyle but one day, one day you will stand before him - you'll have your mind - your mind will be like it is now - a great creator that knows all things and you're going to stand before him one day - even the people that don't want to bow before him - cause every knee shall bow - every knee - not one - every person - and they're going to recognize him as the true god - all the gods they worships, all the other religions they chant - they're going to see how wrong they are.

Michael: But can't you see how that especially instills fear in children?

Mother: WHAT? It doesn't instill fear in me!

Father: I don't fear god.

Mother: I loved jesus when I was growing up! I loved singing the Bible song!

Michael: You should fear god...

Mother: You should reverence god.

Michael: The Bible says if you do not fear...

Mother: NO NO NO, you're misinterpreting fear ...

Father: Fear and respect...

Mother: Fear is a great respect. Have you ever met someone, you have such a great respect for them that you're in awe...

John: Fear is respect?!

Michael: Fear means you want to run away from something!

Mother: No! No.

John: Nothing should ever have to strike fear into someone.

Mother: Jesus said come unto me...

John: God is a god of love, he who does not know god does not know love...

Mother: He is the god of love.

Father: He's the god of wrath too.

Mother: God hates Sin, he doesn't hate the person, he hates the sin act itself - you know why - sin hurts people - sin destroys lives - sin makes drug addicts - sin makes alcoholics...

Michael: So all of those people that are a part of different religions like far away in the East...

Both Parents: We're not mis- We're not dis...Let's bring this back to...

John: But they're a part of it. They're people.

Michael: But you're talking about judgment.

Father: That's right, if they've not accepted . . . christ went to all the known world, Michael, the world population since then has grown considerably...

John: What about when the missionaries would kill the people who would did not compromise...

Father: No, that's not what any missionaries did that I studied about...

Michael: Oh , yes they did!

Father: If they were true Bible believers they would never have killed anybody - I know missionaries right now that went to the cornfield and were killed and eaten.

Michael: When they came to this country they took Indians and told that they were wrong, that they were savage beasts...

Father: The missionaries didn't do it, Michael! The soldiers did it!

Michael: It was all in the name of god, though.

Father: No. No, no no. They're a lot of things done in the name of christ.

Mother: Oh, yeah, that doesn't make it right.

John: Well, there you go then, that's how people misinterpret it.

Father: America says its a christian nation, but that's a joke...

Michael: It can't be a christian nation when you have people from all over the world...

Father: Just because people came from England over to America and said we're christian - um - the Catholic Church thinks they're christian. 99% of them aren't - they've never put their faith in christ.

Mother: Most Catholics will tell you they've never read the Bible. Never.

Father: One of the greatest things that contributed to my salvation was this Catholic Boy from Bullard. He was an altar boy, his whole life went to Catholic school until he graduated. He'd come down here and we'd get drunk together then he'd go to mass the next morning. Then he come down here one summer on fire for jesus. Said, where do you go to church. I thought you went to the Holy Rosary or Mary or something. He said well I did but I heard a guy preach on jesus and I went home and read it and realized I needed to be saved by accepting christ as dying in my place. I said well we go over here every now and then, we were holiday christians, we go on Easter and christmas, but he was a great asset. In him the lord jesus showed me I needed salvation

Mother: What really hurts me more than anything is to know that Michael has put more trust in other people than - could not ever begin to try to trust me and say...

Father: You cannot justify what you're doing.

Mother: He's had to lie! Michael never used to lie! He used to be honest with us! He's had to lie.

John: Out of fear...

Father: NO!

Michael: Yes, Dad...

Father: What's he have to fear?

Michael: Because I knew you would react this way and I didn't want to deal with it.

Father: That's right...you don't want to deal with it.

Michael: No, I don't want to be told what I already knew!

John: He doesn't want to deal with you dealing with him this way!

Mother: You're...

John: This is manipulation.

Mother: Excuse me? I don't think this is manipulation.

John: Oh, I think it is...

Father: Tell him the truth!

Mother: No, this is the truth, OK? god's word says homosexualism is wrong! Michael says he's a christian - if he's a christian the holy spirit lives inside of him - he's grieving god, he's breaking god's heart like he's breaking mine. Now if he's a true christian, he believes god's word, he's gonna want to try to go to somebody and get some help - now, that's simple, OK? (to John) You say you're a homosexual, fine, you don't want any help, fine, I'm going to be praying for you. But, just go on about your business. Let Michael come with us...

Michael: Mom, I'm not going to come home right now...

Mother: ...and look at what we've got to offer him, fine! If he can't see anyway..

Michael: I already know what you have to offer me...

Mother: ...that's fine! OK, I want no pressure from you...

John: I'm not...I'm not holding him back...

Father: Why didn't you go to Arkansas then, like you planned to?

Michael: Because I wanted to stay here and talk to you!

Father: No . . . John.

Michael: Because he offered to stay! I said, "John you don't have to be here at all!"

John: He didn't . . . I stayed because I love him.

Michael: I asked him to leave, he offered to be here...

Mother: Well, you should have went, that probably would have helped.

John: No, I couldn't leave him here . . . because I love him.

Mother: Well, I, well, I just want you to get out of his life!

John: I can't.

Michael: But, Mom, I don't want him to, it's my life!

Mother: Son, you are not your own!

Michael: But this is not your life!

Mother: No! It's not my life! But I'm watching somebody that I love very much going to destroy their life and in the end I'm going to have to be there when it's hurting!

Father: (While mother speaks) The Bible says you are not your own but...

Michael: Okay then, then that means I'm not yours to tell me what to do with my life!

Mother: Listen! I had a nurse friend, OK, she dealt with homosexuals, she took care of them, she saw them there sick on the bed, dying, she saw it, it broke her heart, she couldn't stand it, she said Why, why do they do it? She couldn't understand. These were young men! They had so much going for them!

John: What were they sick of?

Both: AIDS!

John: AIDS...

Mother: Yes, AIDS! They went to have many different partners and oh, yes, the partners would say I've been checked! I don't have AIDS. I'm protecting myself! THEY GOT AIDS.

John: You realize how rapidly it's rising in the heterosexual community right now.

Mother: You know why?

John: Because of ignorance?

Mother: You know why? Where it came from? Come from the beast! It all started from the beast!

Father: Bestiality.

Mother: Bestiality, that's right. That's how it all began! Men trying to find more pleasure - trying to get more pleasure...

Father: It started by men having sex with monkeys...

Mother: That's right!

John: It started by men having sex with monkeys?

Father: Africa! Africa!

Michael: How do you know this?

Mother: I've read literature . . . I've dug it up.

John: It was from an attempt to find a polio vaccination!

Mother: I dug up on it...

John: Where did you find this?

Mother: It was on the news! It was in the books!

John: What news? What books?

Mother: I've read it . . . can't quote the book, but just take my word, OK? god, he doesn't hate you or you . . . he cares about you. What are you looking for?

(John is fumbling with the cassette recorder)

John: I'm looking for my watch...

Mother: (To John) Do you . . . do you think I hate you?

John: No, of course not.

Michael: Mom, I know you are capable...

(A lot is garbled here)

Mother: You're not your own son! You're bought with a price!

John: Sounds like slavery...

Father: This ain't no slavery!

(Garbled)

Michael: I am not a slave to him...

Mother: Living a christian life is not a...um...

Father: ...is a joy!

Mother: Is a joy!

Michael: Not many people I remember from my childhood seemed very happy!

Mother: Well I'm sorry son if I didn't.

Michael: I'm not talking about you...

Mother: I apologize, I...

(The husband is talking in the background)

Father: ...most churches have a crowd of Sunday morning christians, how many people come on Thursday night to visit other lost people and say hey, I wanna tell you about jesus and how he loves you and died on the cross for you.

Michael: I know, but they feel obligated to...

Mother: No, I don't feel obligated!

Father: How many came, Michael?! Out of 300 there was probably 16!

Mother: I don't feel obligated! I do it out of love! I want those people to know what the true life is. I want those people to know that one day they'll have a home in heaven. I want those people to know there's a god that takes care of their every need - their every wish - their every desire. It's that close it's that real.

Michael: Well, I think that's fine for you to tell people so they can make their own choice of whether or not they want to believe that...

Father: Yeah, but you're denying, you're totally rejecting it, both of y'all.

Michael: I'm not rejecting god...

Father: Yes, you are!

Mother: You reject his word, you reject him! You are his word!

Father: You're not believing it! If you don't believe it you're rejecting him, son!

Mother: That's the whole point we're trying...

Michael: So you're saying if there's one part where you disagree with it...

John: The whole.

Michael: ...then you don't believe in it.

Father: Yeah.

Michael: But I disagree with you.

Mother: How can you say that you believe in jesus, but you take the scripture and say, "I really can't believe this part right here and I can't believe this part here but, yes, I do believe this part right here, that sounds pretty good to me, yeah, I'll take that." That's kinda like you're just making it to fit your fancy.

John: Well, what about the parts that are very disturbing? Like mass death...

Mother: Mass death?!

John: In terms of god destroying thousands of people...

Mother: Listen, whatever god did, whatever happened . . . that . . . in fact . . . why do I even try to . . .

Father: You see, you're trying to put yourself on god's level...

Mother: Really, that's what you're doing and you don't even realize it...but, everything that happened: David killed Goliath, OK, that was so horrible, he killed somebody...

John: OK, well lets think about Sodom and Gomorrah again - instead of the angels he offered to let them have his daughters.

Father: All right.

John: What is that suggesting?

Father: That's suggesting Lot had failed in a deep sin away from god and lost all sensitivity...

Mother: So he was just like, I've got to do something here - my daughters are virgins, so lets just throw them out there.

Father: You see, like they're saying with this evolution thing, now they're saying people came from space. god came from space. Chariots of the god. There was no space before Jehovah god created it, and our finite minds can't comprehend that.

Mother: You can't until you begin to...

Michael: I'm not saying I have comprehended it, I can't...

Father: I can't either. But you're denying the truth of the word of god.

John: Well then we have to deny it and come up with our own decisions and we'll see what happens.

Mother: But your decision, by god's word, is going to lead to a path of unhappiness and destruction...

John: No.

Mother: You don't see that right now? How old are you?

John: What's that?

Mother: How old are you?

John: 22

Mother: 22? Oh, gosh. Hopefully you've got a good life ahead of you, OK, but, if you take your way...

Father: You're letting other people influence you, Michael.

Mother: But you don't even realize it!

Michael: Of course people influence me, Dad, that's part of learning...

John: You have influenced him! Everyone is influenced...

(Everyone is talking at once here)

Father: Yeah, he's been manipulated, he's let them christians...

Michael: Dad, if I said I'm going home then John would say fine, then that's what you want to do, he might not want me to leave but...

Mother: No, no no. I'm just going to say what I feel like you're doing. Just by listening, I feel like in a way you're...

Father: Trying to justify...

Mother: (To John) You're due to your opinions, OK? I respect that. But I kinda feel like...

Michael: But I'm due my opinions too!

Father: Michael, you're trying to justify what you know is wrong!

Michael: I'm not trying to justify it...

Father: You cannot justify it...

John: It's not a matter of justification.

Father: Yes it is! The Bible can justify what you're saying.

John: Yeah, and if that's your only source of justification then I don't have a whole lot to talk about.

Father: That's the only guideline...

Mother: That's it! That's it! The coronation was founded on. That's it.

Father: Where do you think the laws of the land came from? From the Bible!

Mother: That is it! That's what it all boils down to.

John: But there were people on this land before...

Mother: It's god's way OR it's my way.

John: One or the other.

Mother: You're talking to yourself like you're in control of everything.

Father: Most people have been exposed to the scripture, Michael.

Michael: How?

Father: In the known world, when christ was alive and when he died they went into the whole known world.

Mother: God is a loving god and a just god. He wouldn't let, now listen, he wouldn't let them people, if they'd never heard, god has a system to take care of that. OK.

Michael: What is that?

Mother: He's a loving and caring god.

John: But he'll send us to hell.

Father: God doesn't send you to hell, you choose to go to hell.

Mother: You choose! You choose! Like they say, jesus knocks on the door, like I would knock your door, you can answer that door or you can keep it closed - that's your choice.

Michael: I know, but like I've said before...

Father: The Bible says that if you're his, you'll be chastised, if you're not chastised, you're a bastard, that means you never were saved.

Michael: But how do you have a real true choice when either it's death or life - I mean what else are you going to do? That's not really a choice...

Father: What are you talking about?

Michael: That like you're coercing someone into like . . . by saying if you don't choose this you have death, you go to hell.

Mother: Well, baby, that's just god's word.

Father: I'm sick of this son.

Mother: I can't ignore god's word. And you don't walk up to some person and say, "You're going to die, blah, blah, blah." You just don't do that!

Michael: That's what people do, though.

Father: What?

John: God is coming soon, judgment day is coming soon.

Father: You need to define the term judgment.

Mother: You see, Michael, what's happened to you...

Father: There's a physical birth - there's a spiritual birth. With christ we'll all die physically.

Mother: That's right!

Father: But we don't have to die spiritually by eternal separation from god - the Bible says (garbled) death hasn't (garbled) You're born once, you die twice - You're born twice, you die once. And on what you call Judgment Day, the christians are never judged - they'll be rewarded for what they did after they got saved. But a thousand-seven years later the great white judgment will take place and all the lost will be...

Michael: But what about the people that were here that had religions already that were fine before jesus came and tried to be christ.

Father: They had, they hadn't...

Michael: Their were people all over the world and the east that already had a religion...

John: That existed long before christianity was ever...

Mother: That was man's way of getting connected with god. They had to search out some way. You know what they say...

Father: They offered sacrifice . . . they offered sacrifice for their sin, once a year.

Mother: They had to do something.

John: But if they didn't have the language, the word of god, to guide them, then their doomed without even knowing it in the first place.

Mother: No, no, no.

Father: All the known world has had the gospel preached to them.

Michael: So those people are OK and they can go to heaven.

Mother: Yes, there is such a thing as under god's way.

John: What about the people who were never reached by the missionaries?

Michael: That's what I was going to say, there's people that...

Father: Their forefathers have been reached!

Michael: Yeah, dad, but there's not always a way to tell them...

Mother: There are people that have never been reached.

(Everyone is talking at once - garbled)

Mother: He's not supposed to be as you think. You know what I'm saying.

John: Then that's an exception!

Mother: That's not an exception. god has his own plan for mankind.

John: But then you've just created a rule!

Mother: Michael, you've come to a point in your life when you were growing up and you started questioning god's word.

Michael: Yes, I did.

Mother: Instead of coming to us to let us help you and taking you to someone that knows the Bible, that's studied it verse by verse, that could show you exact answers - you went on in life growing up doubting.

Michael: I know mom, but I also had people I can name - I was at Trinity I had people in youth groups, I had all of those people, they did that, they shared the Bible...

Mother: But I'm talking about someone that knows everything about it...

Michael: I know that but I still, it's still god's word, it was spoken to me several times all through my life, I even read it myself, I read all the things you've given me.

Father: What?

Michael: The Bible, the books you've given me, the verses you've given me.

Mother: But you're not accepting it!

Father: You're rejecting it!

Mother: OK, so this what it all boils down to - you do not believe the word of god?

Michael: I didn't say...

Mother: No, no, no. Do you truly believe every word?

Michael: Not every word the way you do...

Mother: NO NO NO. When you read it, do you accept it as it says. That's the question! This is not a stupid question. When you read god's word, truly read it, open it up, start reading it, do you accept every word.

Michael: Not before I think about it...no.

Father: You have to accept it...

Michael: I'm too intelligent of a person to read and just say, oh, that's it.

Mother: Are you saying that we're not?

Michael: No, I know you are because you can question things. I'm not saying that.

John: Even though, you have to grant him a period of time where he can question these things.

Father: You don't question god's word, John!

Mother: You believe it or you don't!

John: But, if from that questioning, he comes to believe it, then that's good.

Father: What are you talking about?

John: Everyone has to doubt it at some time in their life.

Father: If I started, "What is all this?" "Where did god come from?" But god didn't come from nowhere, there was nothing in existence before god put into existence.

John: But you had that moment.

Father: There just comes a point where you accept it.

Mother: But you needed someone who could take the Bible and study it with you - like all the big questions you have. Could you just tell me about this or that? I think that could have helped you greatly in your life. Could you please tell me how this happened. And I know people who know god's word back and forth that they can give them and answer from god's word and you know what they say, "That's good, that is a great answer! No one's ever told me that before! How did this happen? I've been wondering about it, thinking about it all these years, doubting it - but you've really cleared the air for me!

John: But it's still a person who's interpreting it for them.

Father: No, interpreting it? What do you mean interpreting it?

John: That person can turn that word into anything.

Both: NO, NO!

Mother: There ain't no way!

John: Yes there is!

Mother: Not a true believer of god!

Father: Be quiet a minute! John, what is a wage?

John: What's that?

Both: A wage.

John: What, the wages of sin?

Both: Yeah, what's a wage?

John: It's what is earned.

Father: How can you interpret that?

Mother: And different.

John: How can I what?

Mother: How can you interpret it any different?

John: Let's see - we can take that back to its Latin roots, we can take it back a million ways, what do you want to do? It's language.

Father: How can you interpret it? It's literal!

Mother: It can mean physical death, it can mean spiritual death.

John: It's all language!

Mother: Let's take a book - This is Mary and Jane. You read that line, are you going to sit there and process it and take it apart?

John: Yes, I think that's what a lot of linguists have done in the past. If you don't know what the language comes from and can't break that language down into where it originated from, then you don't know anything!

Father: I think were kinda just debating here. The main issue is whether you're going to believe . . . I mean . . . John, I love you - but you're not my concern, Michael is.

John: I understand that.

Father: OK. Now you're welcome to go back to Arkansas and tell your momma and daddy I'm sorry I broke your heart.

John: Nothing broke their heart.

Father: Well they've come to the realization that they'll just have to accept it.

John: It's not a matter of accepting me, it's a matter of loving me. My father is a historian and theologian and he knows about every major religion in the history of religions and he's taught me a great deal and through that viewpoint he can take it from any stance. What my father has told me is that the older he gets, the more he realizes he knows nothing, as much as he has, he knows that.

Father: I'm a lot more broadminded than I was 10 years ago.

John: We all continually grow.

Mother: You can't grow when you're dead.

John: Mmm-hmmm.

Father: But...you...you keep avoiding the issue of accepting the word of god for what it says.

John: Well, it's not a matter of myself or Michael accepting it immediately right now. It may be something to question or consider - but I don't think it's fair of you to say for him to make a decision right now because that's still uncertain.

Mother: No, we don't want him to make a decision about the Bible. That's not what's going on. What we want Michael to do is to give us a chance to show him what to do. Can you understand that...

John: Yes, I understand that. But he can take that chance anywhere and it should be a decision that he makes - it will be a decision that he makes.

Father: He can't take the chance staying here with you listening to your false philosophy.

Michael: Dad, he does not sit around and preach to me...

Mother: Apparently y'all talk!

Both: Of course we talk!

Mother: Well apparently y'all have discussed this stuff a million times!

Father: Michael, that's their belief, it's not what you believe!

John: But it's not just me, he has friends, he has...

Mother: It's not just you, it's other people he's been with have the same philosophy.

John: But he had friends that are christian too.

Father: All those people I would hate to say have never read the Bible.

John: Benjamin who was sitting with us is a devout christian and he knows a great deal...

Mother: He knows - but you can go to church all the time and learn that.

Father: Going into church doesn't make you a christian any more than walking into a garage makes you a mechanic.

John: But you can't judge that he is or isn't.

Mother: But by his fruit, by his fruit, you'll know it. By his life, you'll know it.

John: But you can't make a snap decision about that.

Michael: What are you going to say about people I know in Florida that I grew up with that don't have a problem with it and they're devout christians; so they're not christian?

John: Does that mean they're going to hell?

Father: Who are you talking about?!

Michael: I don't need to name people, I'm just talking about people I know.

Mother: Let's just say, god's word it true, it was written for man to have a guideline for his life...

John: And women...

Mother: Yes, mankind.

Father: Mankind.

Mother: Mankind itself. You read it, you accept it or you deny it. You either accept it or deny...

Michael: So if there's a person who goes to church there, it's a baptist church, they believe god's word...

Father: It don't matter what church...

Michael: You know what I'm saying, they don't share the same feelings you have, they don't have a problem with homosexuality.

(At this point, the conversation becomes repetitive. The christians returned to several points over and over again. Everything came to a halt when Michael's parents discovered the tape recorder and accused John of deception. John accurately pointed out that they were the true deceivers - they had come to Memphis with the stated purpose of visiting Michael and becoming a part of his life again. In fact, they had come to Memphis intending to bring Michael back to Florida.)